The CAS discussion. Mission-maker edition

[Macaco]

With as much as cas gets brought up recently, everyone says mission-makers need to balance it and figure out ways to make it mesh well with the infantry, but I haven't seen much actual discussion or brainstorming on how to do that without adding restrictive rules in briefing to the pilots. So I am starting it!

The main issues as I remember them:

• Stop CAS from being able to win the mission on their own
• Make sure CAS is playing the same mission as the infantry and not just flying around on the same map
• Have targets that are worthy of calling in air support, but that isn't so powerful it will just murder all the infantry.

However I've only made two missions, both of them shit, so I hope someone wiser than I can give an actual base to start this on. If good methods are agreed upon I'll update this post so people just finding it can see them without reading the whole thread(I'm assuming and hoping it will get quite long).

[fer]

From an earlier discussion about CAS (which I've now locked, signposting this thread as its successor):

Making CAS part of a mission
Incorporating CAS in a mission that's suited to FA's Tuesday/Sunday rotation is challenging, but not impossible. If you are new to mission making, I recommend that you avoid using CAS until you've successfully created some simpler missions, but if you're up to the challenge I'd suggest keeping these principles in mind:

1. The infantry platoon should be able to complete the mission even if the CAS asset(s) is destroyed early on (or not used).
2. The infantry platoon should not have to stand idle for long periods whilst the CAS asset(s) performs its mission (although the reverse is acceptable).
3. The CAS asset(s) should not be employed to accomplish tasks best suited to infantry (e.g. clearing enemy troops from civilian structures, settlements).
4. The CAS asset(s) should not be able to able to operate with impunity - some AA threat must be present.
5. View distances for pilot roles should be set higher than infantry (use the Dynamic View Distance component in F2).

Of the missions I've made with CAS (for OFP, ArmA and ArmA 2), I can only say I've been really happy with one: Arrival SE. In that mission the FA platoon is supported by a player-crewed Apache. Here's how that mission addresses the above principles:

1. The Apache makes dealing with enemy tanks easier, but the platoon has enough man-portable AT to do the job if necessary - it'll just take longer.
2. The platoon is not dependent upon the Apache completing its missions - it has plenty of EI to deal with independently.
3. Special ROE (hello comrade x25killa!) prevent the Apache from engaging targets in settlements - so it'll always be our ground-pounders going house-to-house.
4. The AO contains a handful of enemy MANPADs, ensuring that a stationary Apache quickly becomes a falling / exploding Apache.
5. The view distance isn't set specially, but the AO is pretty small and this is less of a problem for this slower-moving, rotary-wing asset.

I'm not suggesting that the above principles, or how I have chosen to address them in Arrival SE, are guaranteed to make CAS a successful component of a mission, but hope they will serve to illustrate that this is a topic that merits plenty of careful consideration by mission makers.

[Macaco]

signposting this thread as its successor

With that thread mentioned I would like to say this: I don't mean this thread to become a discussion about why CAS does or doesn't suck, or rules that hosts should impose, or anything of that nature. Simply ways in which mission designers can, without host intervention (unless that proves impossible), balance air attack assets in a mission via design and careful planning.

[Kefirz]

Well in some other missions there were JTAC's (who don't die at all) and I think he could be the filter for the CAS.
If he can't designate and call in targets then there is no CAS, simple as that... So before an A10 can rip up an AO it needs a firemission from JTAC who in turn needs an order from the CO/SL.
Please tell me if that even makes sense.

[Black Mamba]

To follow on what I just wrote in the last AAR, cause this might actually be the place to do it.

The use of thermals in CAS definitely makes them OP. Those random bleeps you said you were engaging, Macaco, were basically the only infantry between bravo and its objective (the only contact report I made during into the Sea, Toppo started to make the squad move to deal with them, only to see them annihilated by 30mm fire a few seconds later).
So the fixed Wing might generally be a better solution. Seeing that missiles are also kinda OP (oh here's a tank, CAS come in, look, there's no tank anymore), here is one way that I can think of:
- A fast mover (depending on how crucial CAS is to the mission, you can choose between A10, frogfoot, Harrier, F35)
- No missiles
- Laser Designated Bombs (makes for a really nice coordination between the pilot and the FAC)
- Cannon (and why not Hydras, depending on the mission), with a rule: the pilot is only authorized to engage targets marked with red smoke.
- Of course, an adapted load-out that gives every element leader, the FAC, red 203s. The rest of the people only get white (or green) smoke, to avoid confusion. The FAC gets a SOFLAM, and is probably added to the HQ.
- Add to that, the pilot is authorized to use rockets or cannon on Armored targets.
- A few AAA or SAM threats, not to be overwhelming. SAM should only be added when the aircraft has a working missile warning system, I think, but then two or three Stinger/Strela/Igla teams on the AO will put enough pressure on the pilot so that he just doesn't stay around to grind when he's not called. What I like with SAMs is they're not, as a mission maker, a big problem. AAA, in Arma, will regularly engage ground targets and wipe out fireteams, making it an important element you need to be very careful with.
- As much as I love combined arms, if the mission is to include CAS, any vehicle on the ground shouldn't have anything above an HMG. Between the power of CAS and the mid-long-range engagement of IFVs, the infantry gets to watch a lot of fireworks, but doesn't do much (a Tank with AP rounds only could be in there, though).

Although all of this might be a working mix, I think, this is strictly for a 'Into the Sea' mission type (Daytime, infantry-focused assault with a reasonable amount of enemy). Also, keep in mind, this is based on my personal way of enjoying arma. As an infantry dude, I like to be put under pressure, shot at, forced to stay in cover and such. Rolling in heavy and blasting my way through the country is not really fun to me, but it can be, and most definitely is, different for other people.

Night time should be able to work on the same parameters, although red smoke can't be seen, really. At which point, the methods to designate targets to CAS can be Strobes (I'd need to do some testing on this, to see how far you can see them from), or flares (but then again, the color rendering of flares in arma is, well, special, at best). Maybe just the laser Designator, as the red point can be seen, but the FTLs ans SLs loose their ability to designate targets (unless you give everyone SOFLAMs).

Obviously, other types of mission can be approached a lot differently. No man behind, for example, was built to have a retriction-less Apache, because without its covering power, you're likely to not ever land a chopper on the target area. The fact is, the amount of infantry converging on friendlies is so overwhelming, having the Apache take care of vehicles and covering some parts of the woods shouldn't be a problem.

As a side note: Helicopters are cool, no doubt about it. The Cobra, minus the TI, could also be interesting as CAS. It's really more fragile, and any BMP will bring it down in no time. In which case, I think it can be used with the exact same parameters I described earlier for Fixed Wings aircraft, the difference being it can also be used as a very good recon tool.

I hope this is the kind of feedback you wanted in this thread. If not, I'm sorry. As a mission maker, my workflow is as follow: I usually build mission around one single concept. The first thing I'll do, is implement that concept (usually scripts, on my end, but it can be loadouts, ORBAT, whatever). The location, scenario, briefing will come a lot later, when I'm sure the concept itself is not flawed (as far as I can see), and are just some kind of package around that concept.
These would be the basics of what I'd do if I was to make a mission using CAS.

[tryteyker]

From the perspective of another mission maker, I wouldn't say that CAS is overpowered. I haven't done lots of coop / adversarial missions at all but I could imagine giving CAS a few restrictions:

Fuel Restrictions (only half the fuel on mission start)
Weapon Restrictions (No Hydras for example)
Ammo Restrictions (400 rounds of the MG, 2 bombs, something like that)

In return there would also be a designated no-fly zone where there are a shittons of MANPADs (atleast 5 per grid) so CAS definitely gets shot on mission start.
Well, I was more or less serious about the no-fly zone, and placing AA in there. Not alot obviously but some.

Additionally CAS would be able to refill at the Airport (which is far away from the Combatzone), so CAS loses time in which it can't help ground units. This should force people to conserve ammo accordingly if they want to stick around longer.

// Edit
Thanks forum.

So in light of Blackmambs post I'd like to add a few things he's brought up:

It's very hard to see smoke at night.
It's impossible to see flares with NVGs on at night
IR Strobe seems kind of suicide to me since that generally marks friendlies (I've never actually paid attention to the standard IR Strobe, are you able to throw it? )

I have no clue about CAS markings though. I only edit missions, I don't play them. (Unless I test them obviously)
So BlackMamb might have a point, but from my experience it's really hard to see things at night (I only play with 1600 viewdistance max, so that's definitely an issue, but I doubt I'm the only one).

[wolfenswan]

The use of thermals in CAS definitely makes them OP.

I found that

Code: Select all

this disableTIEquipment true

is a great way of making IFVs and other vehicles a lot more interesting. As you suggested the same might apply to certain CAS like the Cobra.

Speaking of which, I was toying with the idea if having a dedicated "recon heli" would be an interesting asset, e.g. a Cobra without ammunition (maybe a m240 or weaker) but thermals.

In return there would also be a designated no-fly zone where there are a shittons of MANPADs (atleast 5 per grid) so CAS definitely gets shot on mission start.
Well, I was more or less serious about the no-fly zone, and placing AA in there. Not alot obviously but some.

Just create a big trigger and sync the CAS to it, setting damage to 1 when not present for x seconds. No need to waste ressources on AI manpads.

[Ferrard Carson]

In Vanilla Arma: OA, IR strobes can only be thrown. ACE adds the "attach to back" functionality.

Also, using AI SAMS as a challenge? Could be cool, though they're a bit ridiculously hard to spoof / evade unless you're flaring preemptively. When given the choice, I prefer using AAA as an anti-air threat, but like Mamba said, those have a habit of unduly spoiling the infantry game.

I'd stay away from the idea of trusting AI to enforce a "no fly zone" though. Trusting the AI to do anything at all in a consistent manner != good idea. Wolf's scripting notion works a lot better, especially since a no-fly should be outside the sight of infantry anyways, so it doesn't matter to everyone else in terms of the cinematic experience.

~ Ferrard

[kalelovil]

In Vanilla Arma: OA, IR strobes can only be thrown. ACE adds the "attach to back" functionality.

Hawk Silk has made an IR Strobe script for regular ArmA 2 OA: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/ ... MS-2000(M)

[Kefirz]

Also, using AI SAMS as a challenge? Could be cool, though they're a bit ridiculously hard to spoof / evade unless you're flaring preemptively. When given the choice, I prefer using AAA as an anti-air threat, but like Mamba said, those have a habit of unduly spoiling the infantry game.
~ Ferrard

If you want to use ZU's for AA duties only, you could place some sandbags around it, thus making it something like an AA nest.
I did it while I was making missions for I44 and it worked quite nicely.

Here is a picture of what I am talking about.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ellung.jpg