CAS/FAC Discussion

[thekev506]

I realise we don't normally play with many big toys, especially when it comes to CAS, but if we were would it be worth introducing a dedicated FAC person in slotting/planning? Seeing as the CAS pilot needs quite a bit of guidance, having someone who makes sure the pilot attacks from the right direction and hits the right target that isn't already tied up as a squad leader or commander, that way a CO/SL could just tell a nominated FAC 'take out _____ there' and not have to worry over the details.

[Ferrard Carson]

I realise we don't normally play with many big toys, especially when it comes to CAS, but if we were would it be worth introducing a dedicated FAC person in slotting/planning? Seeing as the CAS pilot needs quite a bit of guidance, having someone who makes sure the pilot attacks from the right direction and hits the right target that isn't already tied up as a squad leader or commander, that way a CO/SL could just tell a nominated FAC 'take out _____ there' and not have to worry over the details.

We actually have a JTAC role in Wideola, but we generally don't use the A-10 there because frankly, what is there to hit with an A-10? 30 mike-mike is a bit of overkill on Chernarussian farmers, even if they are ex-Spetsnaz.

I purposefully wrote my previous post as a "if you have time, do this to help" notion, because I would envision the Deputy Commander being used as a poor-man's JTAC / FAC in addition to controlling the support elements. If possible, I'd love to see mission-makers include a JTAC role whenever we get air support to play with, and it's something I'll be keeping in mind as I create more missions.

~ Ferrard

[Black Mamba]

Why? JDAMs all over the place is the way of the future.

[Ferrard Carson]

Why? JDAMs all over the place is the way of the future.

You have a point, Black Mamba... carpet bombing Zelenogorsk and the surrounding countryside would probably destroy any caches in the area very handily and at minimal loss of (friendly) lives.

Now where did I put the U.S.S. New Jersey...

~ Ferrard

[thekev506]

I purposefully wrote my previous post as a "if you have time, do this to help" notion, because I would envision the Deputy Commander being used as a poor-man's JTAC / FAC in addition to controlling the support elements. If possible, I'd love to see mission-makers include a JTAC role whenever we get air support to play with, and it's something I'll be keeping in mind as I create more missions.

Why? JDAMs all over the place is the way of the future.

Though I'm a horrible fixed-wing pilot and mediocre (but willing) rotary-wing pilot, and happy to let others take the toy slots, I'd love to see more CAS in missions, just because getting pinned down by a BMP and watching an A-10 swoop in and take it out is so bloody cool.

[Black Mamba]

Cool? We don't die in the end!

On a more serious note, I totally agree with what Carson said. Basically, the JTAC job can be done by the DC, or added on a per mission basis by the mission maker if it happens it's likely we're gonna use the air Support in a particular mission.
On the other hand, even though the real military wouldn't even dare go on an op without CAS and flattening the place with howitzers, and even though it is cool to see an A10 doing a strafe run and blowing your enemies to hell once in a while, I still think CAS does make the job of the infantry a bit boring. Get there, get engaged, call CAS, watch the fireworks, move on.
One solution I thought about would be to use AI CAS. But AI cas is usually not pretty due to the AI not really being good pilots. And can't really be used with anything else than GBUs.
The other, would be to use really fragile and underpowered CAS, like a modified AH6 with say a 50cal minigun, or a 30mm cannon (no rockets, as they are still a bit OP).
In this case, the CAS becomes a precious but fragile asset, which can even be used in adversarial missions. Downside is, you can't really use it outside the US army.

[harakka]

I still think CAS does make the job of the infantry a bit boring. Get there, get engaged, call CAS, watch the fireworks, move on.

This is why the mission maker needs to be careful when designing missions that include CAS, and either the mission maker or host needs to enforce very limited ROE for using it. There's a big "whoa, cool" factor when you get air support in an unpleasant situation, it only gets boring if it's overused.

[fer]

We have actually had some success in this regard. In the mission Arrival, where the platoon begins - under fire - on an airfield in Takistan, and must fight its way out from the ramps of C-130s to dominate the surrounding villages, we frequently have an AH-64 flying top-cover. To prevent the Apache from dominating the AO, the host will almost always direct the pilot/gunner not to use munitions against targets that are not in completely open ground.

The scenario-based rationale for this is that firing on targets in villages will kill civilians. The gameplay outcome is that the Apache tends to save the platoon when enemy tanks come racing across the landscape spitting fire, but the infantry cannot avoid the fun task of clearing each village through CQB (whereupon the Apache, if it survives, can serve as a useful spotter/co-ordinator element).

The really wonderful thing about playing with this community and ones like it, is that we can put something powerful in a mission without crippling it with scripts, and simply agree vehicle-specific ROE that deliver more collective awesome than boredom.

BTW, comrade Carson, you might want to consider splitting this thread up, as different themes emerge - and maybe moving it to the learning area?

[Black Mamba]

Just to be clear:
1/ You're preaching to the choir here. I'm pretty enthusiastic about having CAS in missions, just, as you can guess, not so much about rambo-A10.
2/ I don't know if that was adressed to what I said before, but I wasn' talking about crippling anything with scripts, but actually to buff the littlebird up a bit so it can do a decent Air support job, without having to restrict its ROE that much (which, I imagine, not really being too big on flying CAS, can be somehow frustrating for the pilot) because it's still very fragile.
On the other hand, Arrival works very well as is, but still could use the DC to take care of the Apache.

What I'm trying to say is there are ways to limit the overpower of CAS. Using less powerful aircrafts (Littlebirds, cobras, Mi17s, ...), placing down AA units (a Tunguska will dissuade anybody with a bit of common sense from rushing the battlefield even with an apache), restrictive ROEs, using One-shot AI CAS,... None of them include any script-crippling.

[Ferrard Carson]

BTW, comrade Carson, you might want to consider splitting this thread up, as different themes emerge - and maybe moving it to the learning area?

Mmm... the overriding theme of this particular thread was (and is intended to remain) preventing friendly fire or unfortunate enemy efficiency (that shouldn't alliterate, but it does in my twisted mind). If more varied topics continue to come up, though, then I will certainly consider a re-organization of these walls-o'-text!

And we do have that handy-dandy-workshop section now don't we...

~ Ferrard