CAS/FAC Discussion

[Kefirz]

I think a good way to ''limit'' CAS was by special ROE, and that means a cooperative pilot to be sensible and not rack up all the kills.

A way to implement CAS in a mission would be by limiting them with AA pods, so the infantry guys would have to go and sweep a whole area before the flyboys would start blowing up worthless dirt. And maybe have CAS like a mortar? Let it sit at the base and come when the CO thinks they are being overrun, make a few passes and return to base.

[Ferrard Carson]

Also in the limited time I was tinkering with missions, it's near impossible to put ground forces against such a threat that hey NEED to call in cas, without it killing them outright.

CAS falls into one of those element categories where if you make it mission critical, then a lot of the fun to be had by 50+ people can be adversely affected by one person having an off day, and if it isn't mission critical, then it's quite often overkill (A-10's vs dudes in turbans). It requires very careful balancing, and making an interesting mission for 50-70 people to enjoy is already pretty demanding as it is.

Also, SAMs are evil. With that important an asset, I dislike the notion of one-hit / two-hit kills, especially when MANPAD signatures are nowhere near as obvious as they should be, according to accounts of Wild Weasels in Vietnam. I much prefer AAA, which lets you at least maneuver to try and avoid it - the player feels more in control vs. AAA as opposed to hoping that they're flaring at the right time.

~ Ferrard

[Macaco]

I think a good way to ''limit'' CAS was by special ROE, and that means a cooperative pilot to be sensible and not rack up all the kills.

A way to implement CAS in a mission would be by limiting them with AA pods, so the infantry guys would have to go and sweep a whole area before the flyboys would start blowing up worthless dirt. And maybe have CAS like a mortar? Let it sit at the base and come when the CO thinks they are being overrun, make a few passes and return to base.

Wideola has the limited "don't attack buildings" ROE which stops you from just running around blowing stuff up willynilly. I imagine it can be a bit more effective with a JTAC that isn't dead

Have AA that the inf has to clear out, or having cas wait at base for a call from the CO means the pilot spends a lot of time waiting, and when they do need cas, they need to wait for the pilot to take off and reach them. But waiting is the cost of being a pilot, so I'm fine with that idea. Don't think other people would be.

With that important an asset, I dislike the notion of one-hit / two-hit kills

If only the planes weren't so fragile then they could take a few AAA hits and go land, repair, then come back. But as it is it kinda feels like you are good/lucky and avoid all the fire, or you are not good/lucky and you die. Need DCS level A-10s in arma.

You could always go the "let the players handle it" route of giving them targets they could conceivably deal with on their own, but if they all want to watch a pretty explosion, let them.
Perhaps Running Rabbit would be a good candidate for fixed wing cas (LB feels a bit weak against the threat of armor, while the RI can be taken out by ground forces), as the armor that comes around the corner is usually far enough away that they can't see players yet, but if they try to attack it or pop out, they are gonna have a bad day: that sorta "it's not a current threat to us due to range, but it needs to be out of the way for us to advance and finish the mission." I could see it getting boring though if around every corner everyone needs to stop the advance and wait for the jet to come in.

[harakka]

Also in the limited time I was tinkering with missions, it's near impossible to put ground forces against such a threat that hey NEED to call in cas, without it killing them outright.

CAS falls into one of those element categories where if you make it mission critical, then a lot of the fun to be had by 50+ people can be adversely affected by one person having an off day

This is a big deal for me too, I am very wary of missions where failure of a single player, or destruction of a single vehicle, will ruin the mission.

Also, SAMs are evil. With that important an asset, I dislike the notion of one-hit / two-hit kills, especially when MANPAD signatures are nowhere near as obvious as they should be, according to accounts of Wild Weasels in Vietnam. I much prefer AAA, which lets you at least maneuver to try and avoid it - the player feels more in control vs. AAA as opposed to hoping that they're flaring at the right time.

Hey, at least this should change a bit come the next patch, as various missile and rocket speeds should now be closer to reality, instead of the instant mach 4 death bullets many of them are now.

[Kefirz]

I imagine it can be a bit more effective with a JTAC that isn't dead

Haha, yeah..

Also, SAMs are evil. With that important an asset, I dislike the notion of one-hit / two-hit kills, especially when MANPAD signatures are nowhere near as obvious as they should be, according to accounts of Wild Weasels in Vietnam. I much prefer AAA, which lets you at least maneuver to try and avoid it - the player feels more in control vs. AAA as opposed to hoping that they're flaring at the right time.

~ Ferrard

The reasoning behind a SAM was that it was critical for ground troops to locate them and eliminate them, because flying in there would be too dangerous and deadly.
So while clearing the AO troops and the HQ could get some nice search & destroy action going on, and calling it in, destroying, relaying that info to the higher ups..

Or would it be too much for us?

[EBass]

I personally love having CAS on missions, feels ridiculously cool when you call for some gunship support and then a minute later it comes over spitting rockets and cannon at ground targets, especially at night.

Problem is a decently piloted Apache can basically clear out infinite amounts of bad guys until it gets shot down. Meaning trying to balance a mission around it is very hard. Because if you put too little stuff on, the chopper can basically do the whole mission, if you put too much down it can become impossible for the infantry if the chopper takes a lucky direct hit to the cockpit early on.

I think using the attack varient of the littlebird works best, maybe with a rearm script at a helipad somewhere. They are lightly armed enough and fragile enough to rarely be decisive, but decent use of those Hydras can really help a squad struggling with a tank or APC out.

[Wilson]

I think with the larger numbers we are getting each week, we could implement CAS a bit more. By that I mean, missions could become larger in terms of enemy threats but it depends whether people would be willing to play slightly longer missions - personally I'd love to play a mission that could last up to an hour and a half but if you die early on then you end up sitting out for ages.

I think having certain ROE for the CAS would stop it being overkill on missions. For example, they would just open fire on anything they see, they have to wait for the CO/DC/FAC to given them orders which would usually be taking out armor or heavily fortified positions of EI. Leaving smaller squads/light armor for the ground based units.

[SuperU]

On a personal level, I would very much like to see littlebirds implemented more, perhaps in more of a spotter role though.

[Macaco]

On a personal level, I would very much like to see littlebirds implemented more, perhaps in more of a spotter role though.

Wouldn't we all. Personally I like flying the skid LBs because it's bitchin to land and drop off the team in those tiny spaces like back allies and courtyards.

[zitron]

CAS in arma is totally unrealistic, IRL if you knew there are manpads or AA you would simply fly above 3km and stay out of range while raining down Mavs and GBUs with your targeting pod. In arma you are forced to stay very low, which gives AA a huge advantage. So I don't see CAS being OP at all, in fact AA is OP.

The problem right now is we suck at cooperating. What we need is for the pilots and FAC to know how to operate effectively. Maybe we need a workshop for this. If we had competent FAC and pilots, they should never put the aircraft in danger of being shot down by ground fire, so it should be perfectly fine for CAS to be a large part of mission success. But for this we need to have pilots and FAC that are trained. Maybe we need like a pilot and FAC competence test like in shacktac, and only the approved people can take part in these specific types of missions.